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Forum:Problems with Original Name Rule
For anyone who is unaware, our current policy is to always stick with the original release of a game when writing articles. However, particularly in the case of older games from the days when translation was poorly done, this can leave us with the least updated and least accurate version of something. I have four specific cases here in which I think we should consider ignoring the original release rule. Yes, we can do that. There is no need to follow a single rule to the letter if we decide as a community that it is better for the wiki to ignore it in a particular case. Zeldapedia made the rule in the first place, and we can unmake it to any extent that we wish.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 03:35, August 29, 2011 (UTC) "Gannon"/"Ganon" This is the case with the most obvious reason for not following the original version. Gannon (2 Ns) is widely understood to be a mistranslation made by the obviously lacking translation staff of it's time. It is returned to one N in later re-releases of the game. This one is so widely understood to be an error that it's become a meme. It looks unprofessional to have an entire page call him by the wrong spelling. The 2 N spelling should be mentioned in the article and left up as a redirect sure, but I don't see any good reason to use it otherwise.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 03:35, August 29, 2011 (UTC) :Later versions of the original game have rewritten the name as "Ganon", so it makes perfect sense. And it was clearly a mistranslation originally, not for consistency's sake later. - McGillivray227 04:05, August 29, 2011 (UTC) :Initially I wasn't for this, but it makes sense. While I do like being true to the original games and at this point the name "Gannon" has become iconic, it's probably best to move it to Ganon (The Legend of Zelda) or some such deal. -'Minish Link' 16:35, August 29, 2011 (UTC) "Barba"/"Volvagia" The Zelda II boss Barba is actually a mistranslation of Volvagia, which is corrected in newer and more correct translations. We could move the page to "Volvagia (The Adventure of Link)" and the old Volvagia page to "Volvagia (Ocarina of Time)". Barba would remain a redirect and can be mentioned in the intro as a mistranslated name from the first english versions.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 03:35, August 29, 2011 (UTC) :While I think Barba would make the pages less confusing, it was a mistranslation and the name is indeed Volvagia, so yeah. - McGillivray227 04:05, August 29, 2011 (UTC) :As you can see, I've been wondering about this for a while. I'm for changing this, and while it can get confusing, it's probably for the best since it's the correct translation. -'Minish Link' 16:35, August 29, 2011 (UTC) This one I completely support. Your argument is clear and compelling, no arguments here. However, it may be prudent to keep all links to the new page under the name "Barba", to minimise confusion. --Naxios10 (talk) 04:05, August 29, 2011 (UTC) "Seven Wise Men"/"Seven Sages" As you've probably heard a million times, the "Seven Wise Men" mentioned in ALttP's backstory are actually more properly translated to "Seven Sages" (again, this was corrected in newer english releases of the game). Their Japanese name is the same as the Japanese name of OoT's Seven Sages. They have also been stated to be the same set of people by two members of OoT's dev team. One can debate the timeline all day of course but as far as names go, Seven Wise Men is a translation mistake. I'd recommend a page merge and mentioning the alternate mistranslated name at the beginning of the ALttP section.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 03:35, August 29, 2011 (UTC) :I'm personally much more neutral on this one. While it is implied (and stated in out-of-game-source) that they are the Seven Wise Men and Seven Sages are one and the same, they share differences as well (even if retcon is taken into account, kind of odd to present two groups as the same with their sort of differences), main ones being the Seven Wise Men are all Hylian and male, while the Seven Sages from Ocarina of Time are not. - McGillivray227 04:05, August 29, 2011 (UTC)] :I'm with Sally here; they're clearly different (being all male and everything) even if OoT's dev said otherwise. But yeah, I'm neutral with this as well, so if this is going to go through I'm cool with that, and if not, I still think that's fine. -'Minish Link' 16:35, August 29, 2011 (UTC) "Dinolfos"/"Dinafols"/"Dynalfos" OoT/MM/TP each spell the names differently. Currently, the original spelling (OoT) is used as the page name, the other two are mentioned in the intro paragraph, and each iteration is referred to by the spelling used in its own game. Personally I think the different names are handled well. The only question is what to use for the page name (keep it as the first one or use the newest or something). I'm personally neutral on the subject.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 03:35, August 29, 2011 (UTC) :I'm neutral on this topic, however, I'm leaning to using the most recent name as it is simply the most recent name. There is really no need to use the older name of the bunch, when a suitable, newer name has been presented. - McGillivray227 04:05, August 29, 2011 (UTC) :As I said in the IRC, I'm also neutral here. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the "use the original name rule" in general, so I honestly don't mind if we change it to Dynalfos (being the most recent) or just leave it the same at this point. As long as we use the correct spelling for the game we're talking about on other pages, we should be fine. -'Minish Link' 16:35, August 29, 2011 (UTC) Comments In my opinion, we should either follow the original translations to the letter or disregard them completely (but provide redirect links and retain alternate names in the articles themselves); not following this rule with a few articles just for the sake of grammatical/professional/whatever completeness makes things inconsistent and messy. I've not really an issue with following the newer localizations for the earlier titles that have been re-released; obviously since they were changed, Nintendo was not happy with the first name something was given and have retconned it in a fashion.--AuronKaizer ' 12:21, August 29, 2011 (UTC) :I agree with AK. If we update any of the names, we need to update all of them, or else we would be creating even more inconsistency. That said, I am in favor of updating all of these names since, by changing the names at all, Nintendo clearly has a preference for whatever the names were changed to. Jedimasterlink (talk) 13:34, August 29, 2011 (UTC) ::Well, that's the thing, I suppose. I think at the very least the mistranslated original names should probably change, but if you guys think that the only way to do that is by changing all of the mistranslated/incorrect/original names, etc. Then we should probably discuss a new rule about this as a whole. I am in agreement with AK to an extent, and I would be okay with doing what he suggested (that is, disregarding them while providing redirects and alternate names in-article). Perhaps we can make this rule extend only to mistranslations as opposed to the "use the original name rule" in general? -'Minish Link 16:35, August 29, 2011 (UTC) :::I like the idea of using newer names in cases of known translation mistakes. I'm not against newer names in general either, but I am wary of generalized rules themselves. I want to be consistent too, but the circumstances surrounding names (among other things) can be highly variable and require individual attention. We can only really be consistent with rules that apply to circumstances that are themselves consistent. Generalizations are a great starting point, but I don't think it's realistic to expect any single general rule to always produce a desirable result with a broad range of individual problems (i.e. every naming decision).--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 02:11, August 30, 2011 (UTC) ::::While I agree with your statement in general, I don't think updating names requires a whole lot of discretion. Regardless of the circumstances surrounding a new name, the fact that there was a change at all suggests that whoever names these things decided that the new name is more suitable, which we can expect to be a constant in any renaming situation. Therefore, I think we're pretty safe changing all updated names, as long as all old names are addressed in the article. Jedimasterlink (talk) 16:40, August 30, 2011 (UTC) :::::Well, instead of doing what we suggested doing here, i.e. using the original name rule with exceptions as needed, we can do the inverse; I'd support switching to the updated name rule while addressing older names in-article, and then we can always make an exception to that if necessary. While consistency is desirable, there are always odd cases in things like this and exceptions are to be expected. -'Minish Link' 17:10, August 30, 2011 (UTC) If we do go to the names from newer localizations, it would be great if somebody could leave a note on my talk page so I can get the Youtube video titles and descriptions to match as well. --Birdman5589 (talk) 17:32, August 30, 2011 (UTC) :I agree with using the newer version of changed names. What about names that were re-spelled in later games though? Barba for example is a known bad translation from Zelda II, which is fixed in later versions of Zelda II. On the other hand, Dinolfos is spelled 3 different ways, none of them necessarily meant to retcon the other (idk what OoT3D says, might help clarify this case).--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 00:56, August 31, 2011 (UTC) ::With the Legend of Zelda on the 3DS now, Nintendo decided to keep the original NES translation. That's because they appeared to use the raw NES rom for it. However, since they have the Wii VC version available, why didn't they use it? If we go by the latest release, then that would mean that we would use Gannon instead of Ganon. How do we determine what translation to use when Nintendo continues to use both? --Birdman5589 (talk) 02:23, September 1, 2011 (UTC) :::This is the kind of thing I was talking about with general rules not always working, and things needing individual attention. For the NES games on the 3DS, I think we can say with some certainty that they are simply using the NES versions for convenience. In addition to the fact that "Gannon" is never spelled that way elsewhere, there are many grammar mistakes which Nintendo obviously decided to fix in the other versions, which they wouldn't un-fix if they could just as easily have avoided them. So newest version names can be the standard yeah, but this would need to be one of the exceptions.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 02:43, September 1, 2011 (UTC) ::::That's easy; they are NES roms, and they want to present them in their original form as much as possible. Porting the, for instance, Collector's Edition version would technically not be a proper NES port. My way of thinking is that if something's changed for any future release, the changed version is the one we have to adhere to regardless of future ports of the old localization. --Auron'Kaizer ' 03:58, September 1, 2011 (UTC) :::::That's what I figured but I decided to play devils advocate anyway. --Birdman5589 (talk) 04:15, September 1, 2011 (UTC)